Joe Macleod was Global Head of Design for the legendary Design agency and game studio UsTwo, and is a veteran with decades of experience across service, digital, and product sectors.


In recent years, he became fascinated with the problem of designing good ending experiences and is the founder of what he calls “the world's first customer ending business”. It’s not what you think - no customers get killed in the process. Instead, Joe is focused on giving customers a positive, meaningful, and socially responsible end of relationship experience.


His first book, titled Ends, is a look into the importance of thinking about offboarding - from sustainability and recycling, through data and privacy, to retiring old products and tools, and finds the roots of our collective repression of the end of cycle problem in our fear of death, and the rise of mass market capitalism.




In this conversation we discuss:

[2:18] Covid situation in Stockholm.

[5:41] Growing up in the UK as a child with dyslexia, developing a sense of independence.

[9:55] Early involvement in graphics, very early HTML and digital design work, and interaction design.

[13:13] Getting involved with Mobile early at Orange and Nokia.

[15:02] Observing the rise and fall of Nokia.

[16:57] Joining legendary digital agency UsTwo.

[26:06] The Off-Boarding Problem.

[32:11] Getting Interested in Endings.

[38:18] The Western Avoidance of Death.

[41:07] A Chance to Reflect.

[46:18] The Move Away from Endings.

[51:11] Why is it important?

[58:19] The Narrative Importance of Ending.

[59:18] The Ends Book, and the 2nd Book.

[1:14:29] Why the Focus on Endings?